Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | ‘Bush has already lost the war’
Iraqi civilian deaths bring mounting pressure on US-led coalition
“Even before the dust cleared from the bloody scenes at a Baghdad market where at least 14 people were killed … in a US-led air-strike, it was apparent that the Iraq war had taken a deeply disturbing turn. Coalition plans to advance on the capital are changing as US and British forces first deal with the resistance in the south …”
Jarle,
Just so you know that is not the spin things are getting here in the states. Try as they might the extream liberal media is failing to convince people that the war is going poorly. In fact they ask some stupid questions and Rumsfeld and Powell just park them like a used car in their mama’s garage.
More and more Americans are getting behind the war effort but Now understand this is not going to be over tomorrow.
In fact we here that the 4th division is coming up behind the 3rd Division right now and we now have over 100,000 combat troops in country with another 50,000 expected within the next few days with a total build up of 200,000.
I think were going to see some fierce fighting in the next few days. Sad thing is the current Iraqi regime is turning on their own citizens. I don
Jarle, don’t tell me you are so far seperated from reality that you actually believe this?
War is hard. People die. Innocents die.
Here are my thoughts on it:
The military is trying to hit tactical areas and not civilians. Those 4000 pound bunker busters can kill hundreds, if not thousands.
The World Trade Center was not a tactical target, but meant to kill innocent people. That is the kind of people we are up against in this war.
Regardless how you feel about this war or about Bush, don’t forget to support your brothers and sisters who are on the front line fighting because their country asked them to. I am embarassed how we treated the Vietnam vets, and I will personally “pimp-slap” anyone doing the same to the brave men and women fighting in the U.S. military.
John:
What I’m worried about is that this will become another Vietnam, which it certainly looks like it is turning towards. The whole world warned the US that this would get messy, and it is most definitely going to get messier. Just consider the hundreds of thousands of people in protest throughout the Arab world in the last week. The media talks a lot about Saddam’s military fighting in civilian clothes, whereas I’m starting to get the impression that these are actual civilians fighting for their country. I think a lot of moderates are going to turn extremist because of this overt US aggression.
War only breads war.
I do hope and pray that the US finishes this quickly and cleanly, though once they enter Baghdad I’m sure this isn’t going to happen.
Oh, and your comparing it to 9/11 is completely pointless.
First: you wouldn’t bomb Colorado because of the Oklahoma Bomber would you?
Second: there is absolutely no link between Hussein (who runs a secular state) and Al-Qaeda. In fact they are something of enemies.
This idea that they are connected is nothing but propaganda.
dylan, please share with us the evidence youe have that exonirates saddam from having a connection to al-qaeda, since obviously you are daily briefed by cia and you have to clearance to view top sercert info concerning saddam and al-qaeda.
what is with the popular notion that we have the right to know everything.
I don’t necessarily have evidence other than what I’ve read, and I read a lot.
Here’s a couple of news articles after a quick search:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2727471.stm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/30/1043804465839.html
I’m a little concerned with your last sentence:
“what is with the popular notion that we have the right to know everything.”
That’s a very disturbing thing to say, since isn’t that the fundamental right of citizens in a democracy? It’s of course not possible to know everything, but when we are dealing with the primary argument for one country to attack another then this shouldn’t be top secret information.
Remember another foundation tennet of a ‘democracy’ — Innocent before being proven guilty.
Bill, first – remember that this is a war where the US and its allies are the aggressors. Iraq never waged the war against the US or the UK. You should also remember that this is most certainly a propaganda war. Trusting either side 100% would be foolish.
It is hard for me to judge wether the war is going well or not, but it is pretty obvious that the US forces notion of being accepted as liberators were wrong. And that the US army has met more resistance in Iraq than expected. Evidence to that is in the build up of additional forces, and the apparent pause in the advancement of the ground war right now.
As to the US support, I am fairly sure that if this war sees the same kind of casualty figures as the Korea/Vietnam war, then the support for it will vaporize.
All of the above is less interesting than the bigger picture of the war. To me this war seems unjust, and I am not alone. While the US can to some degree live with allies such as Norway, Sweden, Spain, Germany, France and many others disagreeing with the war (remember the war is only somewhat supported by 40 out of 195 countries in the UN), the biggest problem is the uproar in the arabic countries and the hate that is growing because of the US actions.
If this is a war against terror, then its almost certain to fail. The hate for the US is growing in the arab nations, even in arab nations condoning the war against Iraq. At the same time people inside of Iraq is feeling the terror of the war, and many of them seem to also get a growing hatred for the US. It seems to me like the result of this war will be more terror, not less. And not only against the US, but also against the “west”.
You say that you hope the US will retreat from Iraq as soon as the objective of toppling Saddam and putting in charge a new regime are met. That that would be the best way. I am not so sure, to me it seems like we will get civil war in Iraq after the current regime is removed. Just toppling the current regime, and getting a new one will not be the best for the Iraqi people.
To me its truly sad that the US government has chosen to ignore international co-operation and laws and are doing things on their own. Bush has never been very interested in foreign politics or co-operation, and this war is another showcase of what I perceive as US government arrogance and disrespect for international agreements. It does not bode well for the future.
Jarle,
I don’t think we will see the body counts that we did in Nam or Korea, thats 50,000. Its just not going to happen, I was a teen when the war in Vietnam ended. I remember the war not being very popular but I don’t remember the romanced version of all these hippies protesting either. I think generation “Y” is just looking for something to belong to.
What I do think has taken place is The US was frustrated with the lack of action on the part of the UN, It has been 12 years since the first treaty was signed that would disarm Iraq. Nothing happened, nothing was enforced. We viewed this as more of the same that took place in the 1930’s by the same players. Lets face it europe has a nasty habit of waiting until its to late to take action on situations. Both world wars were due to in-action.
Diplomacy only works when you have shared cultural values. Its obvious to me that Sadam does not share the same set of values that most of the world does. He like Hitler would declare peace in our time and then attack another country within days.
At any rate we will have to see what happens with the war and how they handle the rebuilding of the government, my hope is that they have a parliament or Senate that requires X amount of participation per each group with an open election for an executive branch.
The truth of the plight of the Arab anger is their feeling of not having an equitable portion of the future in the world economy. While there is great wealth in most of the nations its only realized by a select few and not the general population. Raise the standard of living for all of the Arabs and the strife will end. This is the fault of every industrialized nation that uses Arab oil, basically every western and eastern nation on the face of the earth.
Its all about Class warfare, the age old story of the haves and have not’s. The US has been painted (by the radical factions of Islam) much as the Jews were by Hitler, to be the cause and perpetrator of all their woes in life. This gives the disenfranchised a feeling of belonging and brotherhood. Has corporate greed caused this? Yes I would say thats true, but we have not done anything that Europe and asia has not done or wanted to do. We just got labeled because we are the last super power.
I also see this as the EU trying to be a super power, their desire to be the world leaders is quite clear. My guess is that the UN along with NATO have been rendered obsolete.
My guess is that England will withdraw from the EU and form a new alliance with the US. This is much about the struggle of who will lead the world as well. You know this is going to happen, all governments want as much power as they can have.
Just a note for the gentleman who had a problem with governments not telling everything and thinking he lives in a democracy… If your from the US you live in a Republic and the power of the people is not a true democracy, you have representation that you vote for but your voice is limited. State secrets are good as far as I am concerned, I dont want to know what the codes are to launch the missiles and I dont want to know where all our CIA agents are. The world is full of countries that want to destroy or at least push the US from its top spot, this includes our “allies” and it is true of every other country as well. Everyone is worried about everyone else’s business.
John,
We should all be be “glad” that the terrorists did not go for what you call “tactical” targets:
Almost 40 miles north of the WTC on the Hudson River is by far the number one terrorist target in the United States, Indian Point and its 3 nuclear power stations, 2 of which are online. These 3 nuclear stations have accumulated 65 years worth of stockpiled highly radioactive waste. Indian Point is only 24 miles north of the New York City border. It is surrounded by the densest concentration of population in the United States, the northeast corridor. (From conspiracy-site standdown.net, but still very true!).
I don’t even want to think of what Bush could have done if they hit those power stations…
J
Jensa,
I am quite aware of the nuclear plants in NY. I spent a lot of my childhood in NY. Years (and years) ago, my 6th grade class went on a field trip to Indian Point.
I don’t think the US response would have been any different, except that I imagine the world response would have been greater.
side note: I don’t know what effect a plane would have on a modern nuclear facility. I just moved from Arizona, where the US largest plant Palo Verde is, and they talked about that after 9/11. Palo Verde is supposed to built to take a hit like that…or say they say. And I am sure that if the terrorists thought they could have pulled it off or if it would have served their purpose, they would have hit something of that magnitude.
– John
War has never winners,
only loosers!!